Engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators

Purposeful Mentoring Conversations

Guest(s): Douglas Fisher and Vanessa Smith
Date: 04/02/2025
Run time: 50:29
Season 4, Episode 2

In this episode, Carol talks with Doug Fisher and Vanessa Smith about Purposeful Mentoring Conversations. Purposeful mentoring conversations are crucial for effective mentorship to understand the specific needs and goals of the mentee so that mentors can tailor the conversation accordingly. By doing so, mentors can provide targeted guidance that will have a more significant impact on the mentee's growth.

So, whether you are a mentor or a mentee, remember the importance of purposeful conversations in your professional development journey.

Interested in Podcast PD?
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Additional Resources:

Mentoring for Teacher Success linked to MIA-Flyer-V4

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Episode Audio

[MUSIC PLAYING]

NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced

classroom teacher, university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four best selling

professional books for teachers.

She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations

and share their wisdom. In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their

careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy.

The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced

educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to

become a teacher.

SANDRA

ALEXANDER:

Hello and welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast. I'm Sandra Hollins Alexander, associate vice president,

content advisor and scholar here at Corwin. This season of the podcast focuses on mentoring in action.

We have such a rich episode for you today centered around the topic of purposeful mentoring conversations. Our

guest are Doug Fisher and Vanessa Smith. This episode is interesting because it provides the perspectives from a

seasoned educator who is a renowned author paired with an early career teacher.

Doug Fisher is professor and chair of educational leadership at San Diego State University and a leader at Health

Sciences High and Middle College. In 2022, he was inducted into the Reading Hall of Fame by the Literacy

Research Association.

He has published widely on literacy, quality instruction, and assessment. I also have had the opportunity to work

very closely with Doug on some writing projects, and what I can say is he knows how to pay it forward.

He is always looking at and seeking ways for educators to continue to grow and develop in their own passions.

And so Doug is just a really great friend of mine, and I'm just thankful that not only does he do that for me, but

he does that, I would say, probably for the entire world. But there are many people who have been able to just

benefit from the way in which Doug continues to give back.

Vanessa Smith is a National Board certified elementary educator in her sixth year of teaching and a proud

recipient of the Milken Educator Award for North Carolina. Passionate about making learning fun and creative,

she strives to inspire a lifelong love of learning in her students. I just want to say, way to go, Vanessa! Oh my.

You are a National Board certified teacher in your sixth year of teaching and a Milken Educator Award recipient.

Oh, my goodness. I know that you all are going to be able to learn so much from her. In this episode, Carol talks

with Doug and Vanessa about purposeful mentoring conversations. This means understanding the specific needs

and goals of the mentee and tailoring the conversation accordingly.

By doing so, mentors can provide targeted guidance that will have a more significant impact on the mentee's

growth. So whether you are a mentor or a mentee, remember the importance of purposeful conversations in your

professional development journey. We hope this insightful conversation will spur your own reflection. Let's listen

in to Carol, Doug, and Vanessa's conversation.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Hello, everyone. I'm Carol Pelletier Radford, and I am your host for the Teacher to Teacher podcast. The theme

for season four is really close to my heart is mentoring and mentoring in action. What does it look like? How

important is mentoring for all of us? And what does it look like in schools?

So today, I have two very interesting guests. I have a professor and very famous literacy published author with

many books that we are going to talk about. And I have an early career teacher, Vanessa-- hi, Vanessa-- with me.

And we're going to have a conversation about purposeful mentoring conversations and what does that mean.

So this is episode two, and we're glad you're here. So before we get started, Vanessa, would you introduce

yourself and give us a little background of where you are in your career?

VANESSA

SMITH:

Absolutely. Thank you, Carol. I'm Vanessa Smith. I'm in year six of teaching. I just got my National Board

certification this past winter, which is awesome. So yeah, year 6 and I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thanks, Vanessa. And you also recently received a national award. Share a bit about that.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Absolutely. So yes, also, a week after I found about my National Boards, I was honored with the National Milken

Educators Award. So in December, they came down and shared with me that I won that national award, which is

for just teaching excellence and then also leadership as well. So that was a really exciting experience.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So before we get on to Doug, just tell me, what is the motivation for a beginning teacher in your sixth year of

teaching to go for National Board, which is a daunting process of reflection and inquiry, what was it that was your

motivation?

VANESSA

SMITH:

My motivation honestly lied truly in the passion, which is the data. I wanted to make sure-- I feel like I was doing

a really good job moving kids with data, and I feel like National Boards really helps get you to dig even deeper.

And it guides that process a little bit.

And since I started that in my classroom, I was like, you know what? I'm going to push myself and go do my

National Boards. My mentor, actually, Catherine Shoup, she was the one who was like, you're already doing this.

Go get your National Boards. And so she gave me that little push.

And that's really what pushed me more to do the National Boards. But it was a really good experience just to

really dig into student data and make sure that rigor you're pushing, regardless of what the kid is scoring or

where they are, you're really moving them in the right direction. So it was a really--

CAROL

RADFORD:

I love that. And notice how your mentor, and I do know your mentor as well, Cat, had probably a purposeful

conversation with you about moving forward with that.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Absolutely.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thank you and welcome. Doug, it's a pleasure to meet you and have you on the show. Tell us a little bit about

your background and your motivation for writing and sharing.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

So Doug Fisher. I was born and raised in San Diego. I've only ever lived in San Diego. I always wanted to be a

teacher. My mother was a library media assistant in our elementary school, and my stepmother was a fourth

grade teacher for 36 years in the same classroom, only with fourth grade.

So I had a lot of models around this. I love the whole idea of helping other people learn, and I heard that passion

in Vanessa and her whole point of wanting to be nationally board certified to say, because we receive these

moral rewards when we watch young people learning. It just feels amazing to do that.

Over the career, I started doing other things and moving to grade levels and then being recruited in a university

and professional development. And you asked me about writing. I write to clarify my own thinking. I'm happy with

people read my writing, but I'll tell you Nancy and I when we have a problem at school where we work, we go dig

into it and we write about it, because writing helps me clarify my thinking.

CAROL

RADFORD:

I love that. So what grades did you teach? You had all these teachers around you.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Awesome. So when I started, I started in preschool.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Preschool? Oh, my goodness.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

All of my early field experience is with preschool. There were not a lot of jobs in the time. I know people have a

hard time believing this, but we were producing at one point more teachers than there were jobs for. So I was

like, I'll take any job there was.

And I got a substitute teaching job, and then I got a long-term job. And then this really rich man gave a school

system $18 million. And he made a deal, if you take this as a school, if you take my $18 million, the teachers

have to be the teachers of the kids all the way through their elementary experience. So we taught the same kids

K 1, 2, 3, 4--

CAROL

RADFORD:

Oh, my God, talk about--

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

A loop across.

CAROL

RADFORD:

The loop. The whole loop.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Yeah. And off they went to middle school and we went back to-- my team went back to kindergarten. The school

was so big that we had 18 kindergarten teachers. That's how big the school was.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Wow, that is amazing.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

But they went off to middle school, it was not a great experience. So a group of us who started the very first-- it

was called the bridges cohort. The very first cohort that went all the way through. We decided to go back to

school and get single subject credentials.

And so I went back to school and got my single subject, and I taught the same kids in ninth grade when they

came to ninth grade.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Oh, wow.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

And then the teacher, the 12th grade teacher went on medical leave in October, and I taught them again in 12th

grade, their last year of high school.

CAROL

RADFORD:

These students are moving in with you. Yeah, they're definitely your family. Do you still have--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

We all know each other. Oh, yes.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

They still come back and see their families in San Diego. Yes. And we often share stories like, well, when you

were in first grade or when you were in fifth grade or you were in high school, you did this. So, yes.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So did you have mentors along the way that were guiding you through all these different grade levels?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Well, that was the cool thing, because when you teach the same grade level year after year, you start getting

good at it. And you start to anticipate--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

--conceptions. Here's how the year will go. Well, when you change grades every single year of your life, this rich

man hired mentors for us.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Oh, interesting.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Helped us organize the curriculum as grade levels. And so the mentors stayed with us for multiple years and

said, OK, now we're moving to third grade. Here's what third grade is going to be about. And I like to say, the

math got hard in third grade.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Right. Content coaching all along because it takes so much to rebuild that curriculum in your head if you haven't

taught it before. So our listeners are hearing some really interesting dynamics of the way you can teach, a

beginning teacher who is nationally board certified and then a very experienced educator who taught all the

grades in school. And now, you're writing about it.

So let's dive into the importance of mentoring, because you both mentioned mentoring in your intro. Vanessa,

can you share a time when you really felt mentoring feedback or when you observe somebody mentoring? How is

mentoring important to you?

VANESSA

SMITH:

Absolutely. Makes me always think back to my first year of teaching, and it was one of the first times my mentor

ever observed me teaching in the classroom. I had 26 students, first graders. And I felt super prepared for the

lesson. I knew she was coming in, so I knew the curriculum pretty well.

After our little debrief when she watched the lesson, she's like, oh, how did you think it go? And I was like, I was

so proud. I had things to share out and feedback that I was giving myself. But then she asked me, she's like, oh,

what were the kids doing while you were teaching? And I was like, oh, well, they were on the rug listening. They

were doing this and this.

And she's like, well, did you notice this student and his name was Lamar? And he was sitting directly right below

me. And I thought that's where he stayed the whole lesson. But she shared that he actually moved around the

rug all over the room. And then by the time I turned back around, he was right where he should be, because

where I was standing wasn't a place where you really notice that movement because it's all out of your

peripheral vision.

And so the feedback when she was giving me, it was honestly just very short, very sweet, very simple. And it was

where you stand matters. And it's called pastor's perch, I think is what it's called, where you always want to have

the L the view of the class. You never want to have just straight on, because you miss so many things that

happen.

And when you miss that, you really can't hold yourself or the class really accountable, because you never know

what they're doing. And so that ah ha moment really came there, because she taught me really that what you do

matters just as much as what you're doing, what you're teaching. That management part really is crucial in

teaching.

And that conversation felt no judgment. It was so nice to just have that honest conversation of, hey, this is

something for you to do. It felt like a friend just giving you advice versus somebody coming in to judge you.

And so that was a really nice part of having such an open mentor was they're really able to give you simple,

focused feedback without that judgment that you can implement the next day, or even if it's a break and then

you go back to teaching, just stand in a different place because you can really see the room engage the 100% of

the kids.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So what you're sharing, a lot of novice teachers have said to me, and Doug's going to weigh in too, is just

teaching that content is what all of us want to do. And that clarification of what I'm teaching and that awareness

of who are we teaching.

And I remember a time when I was doing a supervision class, and we would record for the novice teachers, with

their permission, just the students. So we did this whole supervision class, and we never recorded the teacher up

at the front of the room delivering.

It wasn't stand and deliver. It was reaction to what you're delivering. And then we would have this conversation,

looking at the video together and actually seeing what the student was doing but not even telling. So sometimes

purposeful mentoring conversations, I learned, were showing the novice, this is what happened. What do you

think was going on? So we don't know. Doug, what's your reaction to Vanessa's story with your experience in

working with beginning teachers and teaching yourself?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Awesome. So all of us, not just early career teachers, all of us, when we're learning a new strategy or routine or

whatever, we tend to pay more attention to ourselves, because it's a new habit we're trying to develop. So even

when we're mentoring teachers who are more veteran to go and adopt a new practice, a new strategy, a new

technique, we tend to focus more on ourselves and not the impact of whatever we're doing, because we have to

learn the strategy.

So I really appreciate that acknowledgment. And second, the comment that Vanessa made around not feeling

judged. And every one of us who's been in a classroom, we've had people walk in the room and our anxiety goes

up, our blood pressure goes up.

We don't know if they have our best interest at heart. We don't know if we're going to be judged, evaluated,

criticized. And that mentor was able to ask some questions, get Vanessa to reflect in a non judgmental way,

which is how we improve our practice.

If I don't feel judged, and I can feel authentic and say, well, here's what I was thinking, here's what I noticed.

What did you notice? And it's more of a collaborative conversation. Yeah. Some people have a lot of experience,

and they want to share it, but they're not there to judge and evaluate and criticize.

We're all there to improve this practice called teaching. And I do emphasize practice, because I have been

practicing this for a lot of years. I still learn stuff all the time, and I am lucky to have people mentor me, and I am

lucky to be able to mentor.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thank you. Thank you for that, Doug. It's important that we have these conversations. It's so good that you're

here, Vanessa, because we don't always have the opportunity to get inside a beginning teacher's head and hear

your reaction to that kind of mentoring that we do want to offer. All right. Let's hear your story, Doug. Let's share

a ah ha moment about how mentoring influenced you.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Well, I could talk about my personal experiences early in my career, but I'll go to a later experience. I have the

opportunity to mentor a variety of teachers. I'm lucky to be able to do that, and I think the mistake I probably was

making was it's kind of one way.

And I remember sitting with a biology teacher, who was a very skilled teacher, nationally board certified, by the

way. And at the end of the session, I said to her, Kim, how did this feel to you? Could you give me some feedback

on this mentoring experience?

And she said, oh, Doug, it was great. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I'm like, no, I need to improve as well.

This is a two-way street. I want to know how I can improve. No, Doug, it was great, I promise.

And I finally said to her, we have a good relationship. So trust is important in these kinds of conversations. And I

said to her, Kim, that's not how this ends. This ends when you give me some feedback because I gave you some

feedback. And she says, well, there was this one part where I felt myself getting a little defensive. Oh, it wasn't

you.

And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's go back again. I want to know what I said and did that got you a little

defensive. Because I want to think about that, because I didn't intend that. And I know impact and intent are

different. So tell me a little bit more about the time in our conversation where you felt your insights getting a

little defensive.

We had a spectacular conversation. There was a level of trust. I was open to receiving feedback about my role in

this partnership, and she was open to receiving feedback about her role in this partnership.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Doug, what you did is so brave, and I don't know that every mentor could do it, but our goal in this episode and

in our mentoring is to have mentors hear that they need to be prepared for purposeful conversations and that we

all don't know how to do it. But I so appreciate your courage to ask for that feedback.

And it shows our listening audience that we all as mentor preparers, mentor trainers, whatever we want to call

the work we do need to be intentional about how we frame these conversations, so that the beginning teachers

like Vanessa do get what we're doing. Because sometimes here's the bottom line, mentoring conversations are

very personal. We're talking about somebody's teaching.

And then what you did, Doug, a nice bookend to Vanessa is you said, I'm going to make it personal for me too. So

Vanessa, what do you think about that story? I'm impressed.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. I think Doug said it earlier too when he said that teaching is practicing,

and I think he was able to build such a good trust with that teacher because he showed them that, hey, even

though I've been in the field for a while, and I might be somebody you're learning from, I can still learn from you.

And so it put that value in the teacher right back, regardless of how many years they've been in the field,

because just like you said earlier, teaching, you really can learn something no matter what year you're in. You're

always practicing to get better.

Every year, something changes to be added as a best practice. Something new comes out where you can now

develop different strategies and you want to try it out. And so teaching really is about that. I know it's cheesy.

They always say, it's lifelong learning, but if you're not willing to change, you're not going to be able to educate

the newer students that are coming in. Same thing with the newer teachers, because you're not building that

relationship that's a true, honest relationship, not one to just have because you have to mentor.

You're there because you want to be better, and you also want your mentee to be better as well. And I think

sometimes there's a stigma around that, because mentoring sometimes can be seen with a negative connotation

of, oh, that's only for somebody who's new. They're the only ones that need mentors, when in reality, everybody

could benefit from coaching, mentoring, because kids change every year.

I know, Doug, you got to keep the same class, and I bet that also came with a lot of challenges as well. But even

when you stay in the same grade, the kids change. So just because what you're teaching is the same, you still

have to make a lot of changes to really adapt to that classroom. So everybody could benefit from that mentor,

that coach to really push you to be so reflective in your practice.

So mentors need that preparation and practice as well is what I'm hearing from what Doug's saying, from what

you're saying, and we're going to dive into that conversation in a minute. But any reaction to what Vanessa just

said that you'd like to respond to?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

I appreciate her comments around the receptive nature of this, that it's intended to be growth producing. It's

intended to be humane. It's not gotcha, you're doing this wrong. This is a hard job.

Everybody in the public thinks they can do our job at least as good as we do the teaching job. And I think that--

everyone says, I was in third grade. I could be a third grade teacher, but it's way harder than that. And this job is

complicated.

And one of the things I think is super important, and maybe I'm foreshadowing to something we'll dive into a little

bit later, but the mentor's job is not to recreate themselves. There are many right ways to teach. There are

probably wrong ways too, but your job is not to recreate yourself and what worked for you.

Your job is to help that person become the best teacher possible. And there are strategies I like, there are

routines and procedures I like. That doesn't mean that's what I make the early career teachers do. I can say, here

are some that don't work.

We know Round Robin Reading is a really bad idea. They call that malpractice. Let's not do that. But here's the

thing.

CAROL

RADFORD:

But we used to do that, right?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

We did that. I suffered with that.

CAROL

RADFORD:

We did that.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

But there's 25 other things you could do. I'm not telling you how to-- I don't tell anyone how to teach, because

there's lots of right ways to do this job.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Because we're introducing strategies in these conversations. So let's dive into the topic that I chose for us today.

But I want to just say, this is not evaluation. That's what we've been jumping around is that mentors, and when I

prepare mentors and they're in schools, we want them not to be the principal that's coming in to assess whether

you're going to get rehired or not.

And in a lot of places, that's a touchy situation, because some mentors have told me that principals have asked

them, is Vanessa a good teacher? Should I rehire her? And the mentors have had to say, I'm a confidential

colleague. This is the role that I am playing, and the novice teacher has to know that, otherwise they don't open

up, like what you're talking about, Doug, and tell you. Because if they thought you were assessing them, you

never would have gotten the answer that you made me feel uncomfortable.

But because the role of a mentor has to be identified as a confidential colleague who's, as you say, helping

someone learn how to teach and introducing a variety of practices. So here's how I first came into mentoring

conversations.

I was a cooperating teacher, and the college gave me a student teacher. And it was my first experience with

what am I supposed to say or do with this person? And the answer was just let her follow you around and watch

you teach, like what you're saying, Doug. And she will replicate it, and she will copy it.

And I will come in and supervise her, and we'll move on. Well, those days are over, I hope in most places. And

what happened to me is I became so interested in what would the conversation be if I were really prepared for

my role to help this novice student teacher.

And fast forward, I ended up going into higher ed, as you did, Doug. Earned the doctorate, taught two different

higher ed and was invited to write a book for mentors. Let's prepare the mentors. And we do mentor preparation

in schools, but my interest was in the graduates of our higher ed program were going into school districts and

coming back and complaining.

They were like, my mentor doesn't know how to help me. We were just seeing in our higher ed institution the

inconsistency of the mentoring. One got a good mentor. One got a mentor that left the room all the time. It was

just all over the place.

So when I wrote the book The first edition ofM entoring in Action, at the same time, the paradigm is shifting from

direct telling teachers how to do it to a collaborative approach where the novice teacher would be involved in the

conversation.

So when I first did my research for the book, I decided I would ask mentors who were mentoring what they

wanted. And it was so eye opening, because the mentors that I interviewed in the city district that I was working

with, they said, we just want to know what we're supposed to be talking about every time we meet.

And I go, OK. It evolved into the mentoring and action cycle that I made up to help them as busy teachers who

are also teaching. They're all teaching at the same time, and I defined it as purposeful mentoring conversations.

And how do I define it? It was talking about student learning or teaching practice.

It wasn't where the Xerox machine was. It's not where to go to dinner. No. It has to be something about your

classroom, and then I would call it mentoring. It has to be based in the student teacher's needs, instead of me

just telling you what I think you need, as you were saying, Doug, here's some good strategies. Here, try them. It's

like, well, what do you need? Maybe you don't need that strategy.

Collaborative back and forth. And then I just created this mantra, because the busy mentors needed to

remember what they were doing. And it was plan, connect, act, reflect, and set goals. And this mantra has grown

over decades of me doing the mentoring workshops and preparing mentors to do that before every conversation.

That's your conversation, follow that. So I'll leave it there, because that's how I came to it. And that's what I think

a purposeful conversation prep is for mentors. So let's see what you think. Vanessa, reaction. What's your

experience? Is it like that? Different? You can talk about your mentors now.

VANESSA

SMITH:

I was just about to say-- so currently, I am a mentor too.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Oh, OK.

VANESSA

SMITH:

It's awesome. But honestly, since I was newer to leave the practice, I've been really lucky in the mentors I've

gotten. Catherine Shoup, who I mentioned before, I know Carol has worked with too. She was one of the most

incredible mentors I had, because she really had that connection piece down.

The second she walked in the room, I never felt like-- like I said earlier, there was no judgment, but I felt like she

just was there to make me a better teacher, to make my kids learn more. And that was the bottom line. I knew

anything that she said, the bottom line was, she's here for the kids and how she can make me do better for them.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So what was purposeful that she did? Tell us something she did. So we know she's wonderful. I do know.

VANESSA

SMITH:

I could spend the whole podcast on it.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So what purposefulness, intentionality did you take away from the mentor that helped you?

VANESSA

SMITH:

I feel like for her, she would always come in with almost like the cookie sandwich of something really good, but

she'd always have something for me to improve my practice. And it wasn't something that would take weeks for

me to figure out and for me to plan. It was something that was in the moment, real, and could honestly be

remedied in that day, whether it was making-- one time she was in the room, and I was reading a book to some

of my students, but some of them have never been to the beach.

And so she was like, the next time something like that happens, stop, pull up references, and have them act out

the beach. What would it look like? What would it feel like? So they really had that text to self connection.

And it was one of those things where it was like, oh, wow, what a simple fix but such a big connection for my

students to really--

CAROL

RADFORD:

She did give you resources and reaction to what you were doing in real time?

VANESSA

SMITH:

Mmm Hmm.

CAROL

RADFORD:

So that's important. Doug, what are you hearing? What did you hear from me? From Vanessa? What is this meant

to preparation to be purposeful in what they're doing?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Well, first of all, I just love that you call it purposeful.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thank you.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

It's purpose, intention in the mentoring. We don't just show up and react to what we see. We plan the

conversations. We plan the observations. We have different conversations with different mentees. And this

includes where to next and where to next with you might be different than where to next with you and you.

It's not the phrase cookie cutter. It's not formulaic. And that's why I like that you call it purposeful. And I also like

that you call it inaction, because it implies to me that I am helping this person take action based on what's

happening. What's next in your development as a teacher?

I used to work with student teachers a lot. I do a little less of that now. I work with leaders now. I used to talk

about going to the mall, and I know we don't all go to the mall anymore. We go on online, but go to the mall, and

you're looking for something to wear.

And you try on a lot of things. There are some things you don't even try on because you're like, no way. Not for

me. Some things you try on, not a good fit, not a good look, doesn't feel great. Sometimes you take things home

but then return them. Sometimes you take things home, and you wear them for a while.

Sometimes you take things home and they become a loving piece of your wardrobe that you keep for a really

long time. I don't know which of those things that are in the store are right for you, but I'm going to ask you to try

on a few things.

Then I ask you to try it out. And if it doesn't fit, no harm, no foul to me. But I have a lot of ideas. That's the power

of mentor in action. I'm [INAUDIBLE] I know what I was trying to do. I know where we're going but it's different for

you and you and you.

CAROL

RADFORD:

That's the differentiation piece that when I first started with the student teacher wasn't there until I had enough

student teachers but it didn't have a common language. And that's what I was trying to develop, well, through

mentoring in action when I had the student teachers go to the school districts. And it was so inconsistent, there

was no common language.

I could never talk to a group of mentors because they were-- differentiation, though, is different. What you're

saying, Doug, I totally agree with. We have to differentiate based on the need, and the novice teacher knows

what they need in some ways, but they don't know to do the beach thing, because Cat had to introduce that

because you didn't see it. You didn't see the students in your class moving all around.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Yeah. Exactly. It's the same. In the beginning, it's hard to see beyond just simply because when you go to school

for education, they teach you about it, but you're not actually there to experience the real life action. Exactly.

So it's all the theories which are wonderful and as you should know them, but it's the tools you really need to be

as you need the mentors to be like, well, try this. That didn't work, well, try this because all of the things to try

just simply because you haven't had the experience yet.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Yes. So Doug, let's talk a little bit about how do you prepare mentors to do what you just said. I feel like some of

us intuitively do it as mentors, but I'm interested in how do we teach mentors to have purposeful conversations.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

I'll add a couple of things. I think mentors have to check their egos. And I said this earlier in our conversation, it's

not about recreating you. We tend to find superstar teachers, people who are very good at what they do, like

Vanessa, and we make them coaches.

And the risk is they want to create themselves in other people's classrooms. And often, there's this gap between I

know you're amazing, I don't feel amazing. So there's this gap there. So I think that ego part and understanding

that there are lots of ways to do this job. And if you can get that part in there, I think they also need really good

observation skills. And being very careful when you observe and you collect data, you don't jump to judgment.

And you get into the thinking of that person, you try to get them talking. My colleague, Nancy Frey loves to ask a

teacher, how is the lesson you taught different than the lesson you planned? It's an opening question that gets

them talking about their thinking, because our thinking is where we need to get.

Because yeah, this happened in the class, and this happened in the class. And this kid got up and did this, and

there was a fire alarm in the well. Whatever. How was that lesson different than what you planned? Because then

we can go back to, OK, if you planned this, what were you intending to accomplish? And did you see evidence of

student learning? And how did you check in with learners to see if you were making progress towards the learning

goals?

I think those are some of the skills that we have to get into the--

CAROL

RADFORD:

I love what you're saying. I think what you're saying is so important, Doug, because it's part of that human

condition that we all have. And we have to remember mentors are people too.

And most mentors are teaching full time and they're helping novices as a heartfelt experience. It's not for the

money, that's for sure. And so what advice would you give to a mentor, Vanessa, if someone was preparing to be

a mentor and they were using my tools and they had listened to Doug and they welcomed-- what should that

mentor do to really help you?

VANESSA

SMITH:

I think it goes back to keeping things simple. Sometimes I feel like there's so many things that are going on in

education right now that there's already so many things on a teacher's plate that have nothing to do with

teaching, just simply because the demands of the classroom go so far beyond that.

And so I think in that mind of a mentor, sometimes it's so easy to feel overwhelmed if there's a lot of tasks that

need to be completed. So really focusing on what the priority is for that teacher. If they're new, there's going to

be a lot of growth. That's the whole point of why we're here. We all want to grow, but what's the priority?

What's one thing that teacher I can focus on to really best improve my practice that's going to be the most

successful without truly overwhelming somebody? It's just that nitpick.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Right. Right. Right. OK. I want to ask you another question, and then I have one for Doug. So we do tend to as

teachers always focus on what we're not doing that well. We're always looking for the extra thing that we can do.

And we love it when our mentors point out what we're missing, the students moving, because we want to fix it.

So one of the questions in the Mentoring in Action, the first act, I call it, the first act is tell me what's going well.

And then we usually have to wait. So part of the mentor preparation, mentor training is don't talk, don't say

anything. Let the novice teacher actually answer the question, even if it takes-- this is the old wait time, right,

Doug?

We have to have practice to wait. So Vanessa, I will ask you. I know a lot of things are going well for you because

you have so much for us to congratulate you on. But in your classroom today, what is one thing that went well?

VANESSA

SMITH:

I would say biggest win for me today was student engagement. We had a two hour delay, so they all came in

very interested and confused why I said no recess because--

CAROL

RADFORD:

Oh, no recess. That didn't go well.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Yeah. It was like recess would have already happened. I mean, they're 6 turning 7. So they kind of struggled with

the idea of no, I just got to school. What do you mean it's the same thing? I'm like, no, it's 10:00 AM, not 8:00 AM,

but--

CAROL

RADFORD:

So that went well?

VANESSA

SMITH:

Yeah, it went honestly pretty well because I think sometimes with any type of change in schedule, it's easy for

the kids to either go a little bit crazier or just lose interest in things, because it's way more like we got to get

through things.

So my big win today was the kids were really engaged. We made a lot of lessons a lot more fun and creative in

the moment because sometimes that's what it takes to really get everything going. But yeah, that would

definitely be--

CAROL

RADFORD:

Right. But I did notice there was a little hesitation when I asked the question.

VANESSA

SMITH:

You have to think about it.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Yeah. So--

VANESSA

SMITH:

I mean, because--

CAROL

RADFORD:

We don't think that.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Well, I messaged these parents. And I did this because you're focused on honestly what you did, not what went

well, because like you said, it's honestly really hard, regardless of your job I would assume, because you're

always focused on, well, I could have done this. Oh, I wish I said this. It's hard to sit and be like, what was one

thing I'm proud of that I did?

CAROL

RADFORD:

So we want to integrate both kinds of questions clearly. So Doug, I'm going to ask you, what are you doing well

right now as a leader in the program, the educational leadership, all the books that you're writing? What's going

well for you at this stage?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

So I work at a high school that Nancy and I and other colleagues started in 2007. I am very proud of our current

intervention efforts and the percent of kids that are getting more than a year of learning and reading in a year of

school. I'm very, very proud of these efforts.

We've worked very hard with support for teachers, coaching of teachers, expectations for the teachers and the

paraprofessionals who do this. But if I could go back to a comment Vanessa made, [INAUDIBLE] the plate

analogy, if it's on our plate. And I appreciate the plate analogy a lot. So there we are with this plate, and our

plate's already full.

And let's pretend we're at the buffet with this plate, and we say, hold this plate. I got another plate. I'm going to

fill that up as well. What I don't hear mentors often do is take things of the plate. Deimplementation in the world.

What do we not need to do in class today that would make room for some of the other things?

It is so rare to talk about taking things off the metaphorical plate rather than adding things to this place. And we

don't have five plates. We're not plate spinners. We can't do that. We have to be thinking about what could we

say to teachers.

You don't have to do this. You can cut that down. You can cut that out to make room for this. I also want to

comment on your focus on strengths. It brought me joy because I think our profession is very deficit oriented. We

are much more medical model.

I went to the doctor, I have a complaint. My doctor diagnoses it, they try to fix it, and we move on. That is the

wrong way to approach education with our young people, with our teaching workforce. We have to start with

strengths.

We have to say, these are the good things. And it is hard for all of us to talk about strengths, because we've been

socialized to be humble and to attribute success to others. And we have to be saying, there are strengths. These

kids that I'm teaching, these high schoolers that I work with, they come with a huge array of gifts or funds of

knowledge, strengths and assets.

And if we could get teachers and teams to talk about strengths, they might just raise their expectations for

themselves and for their students.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thank you for that. So what's your biggest strength, Doug?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

I probably would say that I synthesize evidence really well. I think I'm good at reading primary research articles

and saying, here's what it means in a classroom. I am not a researcher. I don't write research studies. It's not

who I am. But I'm really good at reading them and figuring out what they mean. Some people call that

translational research.

I think about, what am I good at in making it happen in the classroom?

CAROL

RADFORD:

I love that, and we need that right now. The work that you're doing, we really need that. So share some of the

work that you're doing.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

You might remember about a year ago, there was a survey of teachers, and the least favorite word of teachers is

rigor. The least favorite.

CAROL

RADFORD:

It sounds heavy to me. Heavy.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Yeah. Rigor, I don't know what it means. So when you dig into that, the survey data, teachers say, I don't what it

means. And it's used against me. I'm not rigorous. So that spurred us to say, well, what do mean by rigor? And

there's lots of different definitions out there.

So we went through a process of taking a whole bunch of indicators and narrowing them down with 420 teachers

and administrators, narrowing, narrowing to the top 25 indicators and what they would look like in a classroom.

And then we organized them into categories around relationships and instruction and goal setting. The

organization, so Vanessa was talking her first year about the organization of the flow of the lessons and then

relevance.

It was a really fun process to say, what would it look like in a classroom if there were high levels of expectations

and rigor? That's been a really fun, interesting project.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Well, because you're debunking the word rigor. So you got to do two things.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Yeah.

CAROL

RADFORD:

You're pretty sneaky there [INAUDIBLE] Doug. So the title of that book is?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Rigor Unveiled.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Unveiled. And I was calling it debunked. See, same thing. So, Vanessa, what's your reaction to that new book

that's coming out?

VANESSA

SMITH:

I love that. I love something you said was what does it look like in the classroom? Because I feel like sometimes

ideas-- honestly, the word rigor. Well, oh, your lesson needs to show more rigor. Wow, that was so rigorous or

that group got-- It does. It sounds so abstract, but knowing, well, here's how many ways and this is exactly what

it looks like. I think that's such a big missing piece is people always say things, but there's no actual application

or there's not an understanding of what that application looks like in the classroom.

And I think that sounds like it will really change a lot of people's thoughts on what rigor is and then also make it

easier to implement in their own classroom, whether it's instructional, relationship, whatever, because you're

giving them I feel a shortcut to making things--

CAROL

RADFORD:

I think this is a testimonial, Doug. When's the book coming out?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Last week.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Last week. OK. Well, we can--

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

It's very new.

CAROL

RADFORD:

We can still put a testimonial out through our online. Thank you, Vanessa, for that.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Thank you, Vanessa.

CAROL

RADFORD:

All right. I think I want to end with your strength, Vanessa. So what's your strength?

VANESSA

SMITH:

In teaching or?

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

In life.

CAROL

RADFORD:

What comes to mind? What comes to mind?

VANESSA

SMITH:

I think my strength would be mindset. I feel like my mindset is super optimistic about everything I face,

regardless of what the challenge is. I'm definitely what everybody calls a glass half full. And my colleagues are

always shocked that it lasts the whole year. They're like, wow, I didn't know that the energy was that real and

that bubbly. And I'm like, can't turn it off unfortunately. But I feel like that mindset has really set me up to be

successful just because it's like the theory of yet the growth mindset.

So you can't do that yet or you don't know that yet. And I teach it to my students every year, and I like that's

something I've really embraced. And so having that optimistic outlook I feel like is such a big strength of mine,

because it makes me feel a little bit more bold in my choices and to push myself even further because I'm like,

well, if you don't do it, you're still young, you can do it in a year or two, because it really does.

It gives me failure is just another way to keep learning. It's not the definition or the end. That's just a way to keep

pushing yourself.

NARRATOR: Thank you, Vanessa. The last word, Doug. Last word before I close out.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

I just loved hearing Vanessa's optimism and mindset and her ability to risk take in front of colleagues.

CAROL

RADFORD:

Thank you both for being with me today. It was an interesting conversation, and I just changed the affirmation

for the end of the show. I had this affirmation, I focus my mentoring conversations on my novice teacher's needs.

And I'm changing it to I focus my mentoring conversations on my novice teacher's strengths.

DOUGLAS

FISHER:

Beautiful.

CAROL

RADFORD:

And for novices, I share my needs with my mentor. So I can improve my practice. And now, I would like you,

Vanessa, I share my strengths with my mentor and others, so I can improve my teaching practices. Let's come

from our strengths. Thank you both. Awesome.

So to all our listeners, I hope you'll tune in to episode three. And the topic is going to be prepare mentors and

novice teachers to be leaders. So you will listen in for that. And thank you very much. Thank you everyone for

listening in.

VANESSA

SMITH:

Thank you, Doug.

NARRATOR: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized

you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books

and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this

podcast with your colleagues.

Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage

in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

FEMALE

NARRATOR:

Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on

extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran

teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.

Douglas Fisher

Douglas Fisher is professor and chair of educational leadership at San Diego State University and a teacher leader at Health Sciences High and Middle College. Previously, Doug was an early intervention teacher and elementary school educator. He is a credentialed English teacher and administrator in California. In 2022, he was inducted into the Reading Hall of Fame by the Literacy Research Association. He has published numerous articles on reading and literacy, differentiated instruction, and curriculum design, as well as books such as The Teacher Clarity Playbook 2/e, Your Introduction to PLC+, The Illustrated Guide to Teacher Credibility, The Teaching Reading Playbook, and Welcome to Teaching!.

Vanessa Smith

Vanessa is a National Board Certified elementary educator in her sixth year of teaching and a proud recipient of the Milken Educator Award for North Carolina. Passionate about making learning fun and creative, she strives to inspire a lifelong love of learning in her students. As an Expanded Impact Teacher, she leads her first-grade team and co-lead beginning teacher meetings, supporting both students and fellow educators.

Carol Pelletier Radford

Carol Pelletier Radford is the founder of Mentoring in Action, an organization dedicated to the success of novice teachers and their mentors. Before she established her own organization to support mentors and new teachers, she was a veteran elementary school teacher and a teacher preparation leader. Carol is the author of Corwin’s bestselling books Mentoring in Action: Guiding, Sharing, and Reflecting With Novice Teachers and The First Years Matter: Becoming an Effective Teacher.

Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.

You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.

Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford